Posts by IT Support

61

Born Again?

by IT Support in

to those who consider themselves christian.... is it possible to be a christian without being 'born again'?.

did you get baptised again after leaving jws?.

confused.... ken.

IT Support

Hi SS,

Emptiness seems to be the nature of some spirituality, so don't feel like you're missing a lot.

But in that case, surely the emptiness would still feel spiritual? I guess being brought up "in the truth" (sic) meant it was more an intellectual than spiritual exercise when I got baptised, even though my dedication was sincerely made, albeit that I felt under pressure that it was expected of me. And in the years since then, life's been too hectic to stop and think, or at least when I did, any such disquieting thoughts were quickly pushed aside. But now, thinking about things more, I don't feel I've ever had a personal relationship with God, even though I would like to...

Unless you are specially gifted, you need an altered mind state to explore this area.

That's the point of my original question. It seems that those who feel they are 'born again' have this intense spiritual experience without any such aids. This, in itself, is a confirmation to them of their Christianity. As I have no such feelings, is it still possible to be a 'proper' Christian without being 'born again'?

Drugs can also help, but they are two edged, so go w the former.

I'm not really into these! As an aside, I was searching the web for information on being 'born again' and came across this interesting site, for an unexpected twist on the subject: http://www.angelfire.com/pa/greywlf/why.html

It's fascinating how this anti-Born Again site has many familiar undertones to anyone used to reading anti-JW sites!

BTW, watch out for aguest and her ranting. She hears voices and stuff, but is somewhat confused.

I'll take this advice in the spirit with which I'm sure it was given.

Ps, eckhart tolle recommends a meditation that is focused on emptiness. It could be the emptiness in a room, the sky, or space. He claims that 'god' is in the emptiness, and so focusing on it could put on in touch. I haven't tried this, but it sounds workable and harmless.

I'll look into it. Thanks. Ken

61

Born Again?

by IT Support in

to those who consider themselves christian.... is it possible to be a christian without being 'born again'?.

did you get baptised again after leaving jws?.

confused.... ken.

IT Support

Hi Bradley

If you do enough research from non-biased scholarship you will see that the evangelical notion of being "born again" is not really Biblical. The correct translation in Jesus' conversation with Nicodemus is not "born again" but "born from above." Check it out.

That's interesting. I just looked up the Interlinear and it says for John 3:3 (transliterated): "If ever not anyone should be generated from above, not he is able to see the kingdom of the God."

In his Daily Study Bible, Barclay concludes that "To be born again is to be changed in such a way that it can only be described as rebirth and re-creation. The change comes when we love Jesus and allow him into our hearts. Then we are forgiven for the past and armed by the Spirit for the future; then we can truly accept the will of God. And then we become citizens of the kingdom; then we become sons of God; then we enter into eternal life, which is the very life of God."

So I guess becoming "citizens of the kingdom" ties in with being "born from above."

Or did you have something else altogether in mind?

Regards,

Ken

PS: I hope nobody minds the large font size: I find it far easier to read the screen, "see with what large letters I write."

61

Born Again?

by IT Support in

to those who consider themselves christian.... is it possible to be a christian without being 'born again'?.

did you get baptised again after leaving jws?.

confused.... ken.

IT Support

JT,

This is the very reason why belief system are all the same- they all follow the same line of reasoning

"Fail to worship my god the way he says and you die"

Surely, it would be acceptable if that was what they said. The problem occurs when they say,

"Fail to worship my god the way we say or you die."

Regards,

Ken

61

Born Again?

by IT Support in

to those who consider themselves christian.... is it possible to be a christian without being 'born again'?.

did you get baptised again after leaving jws?.

confused.... ken.

IT Support

Hi JT,

the bible teaches and its followers accept that if you don't have the classification of Born Again, God is going to Kill you- so with that as your option is it any wonder that believers speak in terms of how much they love their Heavenly father-

You may be right, but that's what I'm trying to find out. On the other hand, could it be that our understanding of what it actually means to be 'born again' is not correct? Maybe Jesus had something completely different in mind to what we think of today?

for some reason i just don't believe that most fathers would not Kill their kids just because they don't share their views on issues-

Neither do I.

just think about this, you can be kind, loving, generous, good natured, friendly,not curse, not smoke, pay your taxes on time, feed the poor, provide shelter for the homeless, be a loving father, husband, wife or mother, and yet in the eyes of a "believer" their god views you no better than Hitler or a person who lies, cheats, steals and murders for a living yep you are Dirt if you don't do it the way we say do it-

I'm not sure whether God would view a 'good' non-believer in exactly the same light, and subject to the same condemnation, as an 'evil' non-believer. I don't think I agree with you here. Isn't that what the Day of Judgment is supposed to be for, to separate the sheep from the goats? Jesus didn't say a favourable judgment would be based on whether or not one was 'born again,' but on each person's charitable works...

you got to LOVE BELIEF SYSTEMS that use DEATH IN THE BACKGROUND TO KEEP YOU IN LINE

But then didn't Jesus purely emphasise love for God, self and neighbour? Regards, Ken PS: I've a feeling I haven't replied to your last IM: if not, I'll email you instead.

61

Born Again?

by IT Support in

to those who consider themselves christian.... is it possible to be a christian without being 'born again'?.

did you get baptised again after leaving jws?.

confused.... ken.

IT Support

Hi Sabrina,

As for your question whether it's possible to be a Christian without being born again, this I cannot say for others but for myself anyone who loves Jehovah and the Christ is a Christian regardless if they feel they are born again or not. But that's just my opinion.

Frankly, that's how I presently feel, but I'm just not sure whether I'm missing out on something...!

Nice to meet you too.

Regards,

Ken

61

Born Again?

by IT Support in

to those who consider themselves christian.... is it possible to be a christian without being 'born again'?.

did you get baptised again after leaving jws?.

confused.... ken.

IT Support

Hi Euphemism,

Ken... I'm not a Christian. Ray Franz is one, however, and I thought his take on this subject was interesting.

Frankly, my confusion is, I think, partly caused by what Ray wrote. He said:

Some persons speak of ?becoming Christians? and ?accepting Christ? after leaving Jehovah?s Witnesses. That may perhaps be true in their case. In my own case it was precisely because of being a Christian and of having accepted Christ as my God-appointed Head and Master that I took the course I did. My separation from the Watch Tower organisation did not result in my accepting Christ, but resulted from my having accepted Him many decades earlier. In Search of Christian Freedom, page 703

I'm not sure if this is the same passage as you had in mind. I have huge respect for Ray and what he has done and written, but I felt he rather fudged the issue here, which is part of my confusion.

So far as I remember, this is his only comment on being "born again" and I felt he dodged the question of whether the rest of us need to be "born again" by purely referring to his own situation, which is not very helpful, because he always felt he was of the anointed and thus had no 'changes' to make. (If you know what I mean!)

As for anyone else, he says it "may perhaps be true in their case," if they have "accepted Christ." I'm sorry, but I found that rather dismissive.

In my own situation, much as I think I would like to be a "Christian" (I say "think" because I'm taking this opportunity to review everything I previously believed, including the accuracy and sanctity of the Bible), I find that no matter how much I pray to God and ask for his help to really get to know him, I still feel empty inside. I feel very envious of those who feel they have a 'knowing' relationship with God and Christ.

I realise that's probably my fault, but it's why I'm asking all these--probably stupid--questions...

Regards,

Ken

61

Born Again?

by IT Support in

to those who consider themselves christian.... is it possible to be a christian without being 'born again'?.

did you get baptised again after leaving jws?.

confused.... ken.

IT Support

Mouthy:

Yep! I was baptised again after Oct 20th 1989 When I was born again... No joke! But my daughters who were raised as JW - did not -they said they knew who Jesus was. I didnt ,,,I thoought he was micheal the Ark Angel....

Thanks, may I ask you, are all Christians 'born again'? Does that necessarily mean being filled with holy spirit and speaking in tongues, etc?

The reason I am confused is that I've heard some 'Christians' seem to speak disparagingly of those who are 'born agains,' dismissing them all as if they're just an evangelical sect of Christianity...

Is it possible to be 'born again' (as Jesus indicated in John 3) without all the 'speaking in tongues' and 'praise the Lord' bit, which, to be honest, I find rather off-puting?

Or is this just my JW prejudices here?!!

Thanks,

Ken

61

Born Again?

by IT Support in

to those who consider themselves christian.... is it possible to be a christian without being 'born again'?.

did you get baptised again after leaving jws?.

confused.... ken.

IT Support

Thanks, Big Tex.

Best wishes,

Ken

16

The WTS and Dictatorship

by Defender in

jw
friends

a lot of comparisons have been made between the wts and political dictatorial governments.

some hope that while the political dictatorial governments tend to develop fatal flaws that eventually bring about their demise, the same may be happening in the wts.

while there may be outward similarities between wts and dictatorial regimes, but the inherent political and social power structure is different.

IT Support

The average JW VOLUNTARILY chooses to submit to the dictatorial will of the WTS, thinking that it is from God.

I totally agree, and isn't this is exactly what Ray Franz says in CoC?

?I try in my own mind and heart to understand the feelings of all [Jehovah?s Witnesses], including those of the Governing Body. Based on my own [60 years] experience among them I believe that they are, in effect, the captives of a concept. The concept or mental image they have of ?the organization? seems almost to take on a personality of its own, so that the concept itself controls them, moves them, or restrains them, by molding their thinking, their attitudes, their judgments? The?concept of ?the organization? ? becomes, in fact, the dominant, controlling force.? Crisis of Conscience, p. 296

A friend I have got to know on another board has almost finished writing a book he has titled "Captives of a Concept" which comes from this quote. He sent me a draft and it's a very good explanation of how this process occurs.

Best wishes,

Ken

5

The Gift of This Forum.

by Blueblades in

jw
friends

it's been 34 years in association with the wt.society.it's been two years of inactivity.it's been a year and a half since joining this forum.and at this time of the year,my family considers this forum as a gift not only to ourselves but to the many others who have given of themselves over the years to all of us.. on this our 35th wedding anniversary,we thank all of you,especially simon and angharad for the gift of this forum.. best wishes to all of you.. don't quit.

when things go wrong,as they sometimes will,.

when the road you're truding seems all uphill,.

IT Support

As a Newbie, I still feel like I'm "feeling my way," but I have appreciated the kindness, help and understanding of all I've met here.

Thank you Simon and others who run this system. And thanks to everyone who contributes to make it what it is...

Season's greetings! (That's the first time in my life I've ever said that. )

Ken